Grooby Interview


Meghan Chavalier did an interview with Steve Gallon from Grooby productions. Grooby is without a doubt THE name in transgender M2F porn. I don’t think Mr Gallon is a bad guy, and I feel like he honestly does like the women he works with. But, his understanding of trans women can’t help but influence those guys who lust after women with bodies like mine.

This is going to be a few article series where I talk about some of the things he has to say about the industry and the women who work in it. If you are offended by porn-terms for trans women, then you should not read below the fold. I am also not really going to discuss any of his thoughts on running his business or how he started in the business, which is a good portion of the interview

Because I spent so many years in the adult film industry, I understand where the term shemale came from. I am not a big fan of the term shemale but I completely understand why it’s used. You would know better than anyone, so please explain to our readers where you think the term shemale started and why it’s so widely used today to describe the women in the transgender community?M Chavalier

It’s a terrible word but people need to understand that it’s not descriptive of transwomen but specifically of transgenders in the porn industry. I didn’t know better when I named my first site, Shemale Yum and by the time I did, it was too well branded … over the years I went through periods of calling naming the sites with “tgirl” instead (Black-Tgirls or Franks-Tgirlworld) but more recently we’re back using “shemale” (ShemaleJapan or ShemalePornstar) as it is such a good descriptive word that fans know to search for. If those same fans, take the word and address a transgender outside the realm of adult productions by “shemale” then they’re showing their ignorance and lack of class. On our forums and in editorials we’ve always been very clear about this and about respect. If you look at mainstream porn there is plenty of pretty bad descriptive words that you wouldn’t take into real life.
Funnily enough, the first use of the word was to describe a “masculine lesbian” … and it wasn’t used until the late 1970’s as a term to describe a transsexual in porn movies of that time. I can see why transgender women are offended by it outside the realm of porn and when it’s used then but frankly, there are more important transgender rights that should take precedence over this.

Some problems here. I am perfectly willing to believe that the first site made in 1995 was named without understanding what the history behind the word was. I mean, really Janice Raymond’s book and its use to get the US government to not fund transitioning via Medicare/aid and the insurance industry following suit and not covering any of the costs to transition are not widely known facts today . It should not go without saying that this economic situation does contribute to the numbers of trans women who use the sex industry to fund transitioning. It’s a bit of a win-win for Mr Gallon with plenty of models AND a handy word to use.

So, he got educated. Woo! Stopped using that word in favor of “T-Girl” and other things. But, the damage was done… or something. The word – it’s just far to common and yanno useful and descriptive and makes us money. And, yes guys who use it outside of porn are pretty much showing their asses. Steve says he tries to make it clear that it’s a porn word and not to be used with a real life “transgender” (don’t think I missed the ungendering lack of “woman”). If that is the case, it’s a rally piss poor job of educating. Seriously, THAT fucking word – it’s all over the place, people don’t know what a Trans woman is, but “shemale”? Everyone knows THAT ONE. Perhaps a bit more attention paid to informing the cis chasers who frequent your sites – think of it as “branding” and “marketing” I bet you’ll get it then.

Yes, mainstream porn has some pretty messed up words used in advertising. Yes, those word are degrading to the women they are applied to. For tranny chasers, porn is often the only place they see trans women. A guy with a “thing” for African American women, for example, has ample media that is not porn to balance that out. Trans women don’t have that (care to puzzle out why?). Your use of “shemale” is not mitigated by the use of other fuckedup words in porn. If little Billy jumped off a bridge… and all that.

“I can see why transgender women are offended by it outside the realm of porn and when it’s used then but frankly, there are more important transgender rights that should take precedence over this.”

Mr Gallon, Steve, pal, buddy, dude… Fuck off! YOU don’t get to tell trans women what is and is not important to us. I have to say that I agree, there are issues slightly more important that the use of a word. But, it is privileged and more than a little self-serving for you to take this position. Ultimately, That word harms trans women. It links us all to the sex industry in ways that no other group of women is – both in literal ways as well as social perception. Seriously, I don’t care how many trans women you know or how many chasers you have allowed to have a wank, or how involved with “the community” you are. WE choose our issues and WE determine the order of importance. I have a few more observations of this interview that I’ll be posting.

Advertisements

~ by laughriotgirl on October 10, 2009.

31 Responses to “Grooby Interview”

  1. Thanks for the feedback on the interview. I never claimed to be telling transwomen what to do, I just voiced my personal opinion. I don’t really appreciate being told to “fuck off” but I guess, to remain civil wouldn’t really promote an “opinionated tranny” very well? Strangely enough, I’ve also seen transgenders offended by the word “tranny”.
    If don’t believe many people of importance, can’t see the difference between words used on a porn site and transgenders who are not in the porn world.
    Is your issue with porn in general, transgender porn or just the naming?

    Regards
    Steven

    • Hello Steven-

      I have no issue with porn. I have some issues with trans porn, in part because of the terms used in it and the dripping fetishization of the models that have no apparent balance within the industry.

      Also, this is not intended to be a place where trans women play coquette and demure at the attentions of a cis man. As you have observed, we have many issues and many reasons to be upset. I’m rather pissed myself and my language will at times reflect that.

      You touch on the issue of “reclaiming” words. I, personally choose to reclaim “tranny”. Other trans women reject that and I support their decision to do so and will not use it. Most trans people understand this and it is generally not much of an issue that I have seen. The take home point is that I CHOOSE to claim the word – I REFUSE to have another label me with it or expect that I should accept their use of it.

      And finally, you were letting trans women know how their priorities should be ordered. That is, in fact, telling us what to do.

      Most people have no clue that trans women work outside of the sex industry – I am routinely assumed to be a sex worker, called “shemale as a compliment or matter of address by guys who want to date me “never been with a shemale before. Looking to try something new. Hit me back” – was received by me an hour ago from an ad. So people really can’t see the difference – just check the dating area of the TLB forum. These are gys looking for real trans women..what words are they using? Visit AFF often? how about “FindAShemaleLover?” Guys seriously think this is the proper way to address me and gals like me.

      • Hey
        Ok I need my word for today “cis” … educate me please?

        I reuly respect your point of view here but as much as any of us, don’t want to be labelled, we are. Whether it’s for body type, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, etc. You refusing to have another label you, is irrelevant as that’s what they MAY be calling you.

        Let’s identify why you are routinely assumed to be a sex worker? I have trans friends who don’t work in the adult industry and they have never been assumed to be sex workers? You mentioned AFF and have good point but look at the advertisements from TV/TS looking for male … not only do they use the same objective wording but many also refer to “gifts”.

        You argument about the word “shemale” is valid but in my opinion (and the point of my wording in the interview) is that there more ways to rectify the problem then objecting to a word, that is only used in the porn industry.

        Respectfully,

    • Steven-

      I also want to thank you for stopping by. I mean you are THE Seanchai, and of all the cis-male producers of trans porn, the only one I would give any amount of credit to.

    • Well, if you want us to take you seriously you could start by NOT calling us “Transgenders” and instead calling usWOMEN. Transgender is a term coined by crossdressers to wedge themselves under an umbrella with us and it damages transwomens’ status by comparison. And no Steve, most men watching “Tranny porn” do NOT know the difference between a term used in porn and what’s okay to say in every day life. If they did most of the men I tell to fuck off in my inbox every day wouldn’t keep calling me one.

      Educate yourself, then educate your fanbase, or NOTHING will EVER FUCKING CHANGE.

      • As a transsexual woman, I can’t say I’m down with the idea that transgender as a term damages the status of transsexual women. The problem is when people take the term and decide it is a third gender, as Steve obviously does. I also have the same issue with the term “transwomen”.

      • Hi Penny
        I’m not really that bothered on how seriously you take me or not, or even who “us” refers to. Within what I do, I am taken seriously and often, so is my opinion.
        Let’s get realy here, your never ever, going to be referred to as “women” as in the same as a gender borned women are. There will always be the distinction made and as much as I expect transgenders to become more accepted into mainstream societies in the future, the difference will still be made, in the naming and labeling of those persons. So quit the pipedream and look for something realistic to cry about. Those of you whining about the term transgender as an all encompassing word, are the ones with the real issues, not those using it.

        If most men don’t know the difference between a porn word and word in real life, then we educate them. We let them know what’s appropriate and what’s not. Simply telling them to fuck off, service no purpose at all. We’ve been doing this across our sites for years and by using specific “porn terms” for the site, we can differentiate between what is fantasy (a porn site) and reality.

      • Lucy,
        If the word “transgender” is not used to refer to someone different from the male or female genders, then what do you suggest the word means or it’s usage?

      • Aaaaaand his reply below pretty much proves he really doesn’t get it or ever will. The only reason the girls he films take him seriously is because he’s probably the only paycheck they’re able to get in a world where we have no job security. His guy pals take him seriously because they likely don’t know any better. He has an opportunity to educate but he clearly only really cares about his porn making money. If I had the capitol I’d start my own porn company with LaughRiot and Genderbitch and show him how Transwomen SHOULD be portrayed in porn. But his basic attitude of “You’ll never be real women to most people, you’ll aklways be a distinction, deal with it and accept it when I call you a transgender and slap shemale and tranny all over my product but honest I really am a nice understanding guy so quit your fucking whining bitch” is the ultimate self-offered proof that he DOESN’T understand us and he DOESN’T care. Last response to him, he’s now officially not worth the effort.

      • Bah! I should have expected such a trite answer Penny when I saw the illogic of your original post, I was expecting too much when I thought we might get some discourse and actual good ideas coming forth. You’ve just become a parody of your own stereotype, just as you attack my stereotype.

        I get it well, thanks – and like the OP, I’m also not going “play coquette and demure” just because some transgenders can’t accept reasonably discussion, or indeed, face reality.

        I would sincerely LOVE to see you make some porn. Seriously, maybe that’s what we need, something a bit different. I wonder how you’d name it and how it would reach a potential market though? Maybe like your other fantasy, it’s just a pipedream.

  2. Hey Lucy –

    I think the best way to look at “Transgender” and its various forms is to note that it is an adjective. While some adjectives can be used correctly as nouns, it is often better not used so (particularly when dealing with people).

    ex. Transgender =/= Transgender Woman

  3. The term that I first heard was shemale. I never realized there was a negative connotation associated with that word until a very wise, very thoughtful, and very nice lady pointed out (not just to me, but to many others) that it was a term used by the porn industry. I am very thankful for being enlightened (and I’m very serious here, not sarcastic). Now I prefer to use the terms lady or woman or any other female term when I talk to or about transsexual women.

    • Jim-

      I think you are a perfect example of a very normal guy who likes trans women. I have seen you go from a pretty clueless, but good-hearted guy to someone I think really tries to understand and be supportive of trans women.

      I also think you can speak for most guys regarding shemale. Most guys simply don’t get that it is not a good word to use.

      And.. thank you 🙂

  4. IT would be difficult for me to say much negatively — I’m sex positive and went to high school with Eli Cross for crying out loud. We’ll not talk about the rest.

    I still remember killing one of his PC’s…

    Anyway, I do agree that the third gendering is inappropriate, but only when applied outside the context of the specific performers — some of them *are* third gender. And transgender, as a group, includes people who are such.

    Something to keep in mind is that transsexuals are not the only one’s performing in the films. There are a great many who do such as transgender women (and men) — not as transsexuals.

    This is made more difficult because it appears to the average, prototypical customer of such, that they are indeed, transsexuals, and due to the lack of overall understanding within the community of this point, there’s not a lot of understanding outside of the community on this point — so to these typical customers, there is no difference, and occasionally one of them will “get lucky” and find a transgender who isn’t transsexual, but meets their requirements.

    And although I may be a transsexual, and I may find that concept somewhat offputting, that does not, in and of itself, mean that is a bad or undesirable thing for others — merely for me.

    • Hey Dyss, thanks for stopping by.

      I seriously don’t want this post or the further posts about this to come off as ant-porn or anti-sex, I have and/or do enjoy both. My issue is using “Shemale” even after it becomes obvious that many many trans women don’t like it. The reason provided is that it’s good marketing, and well, other types of porn use icky words to.

      Then to say that trans women have more important issues to deal with seems a little self-serving. Putting the disclaimer that editorials and forum posts make it clear that the word is not acceptable generally, falls short in reality. Like Jim above said, most guys have no idea that Shemale is offensive (to many, not all) and/or it is cute and clever.

  5. Hello Steven-

    “Cis” is a prefix opposite to “Trans”. Julia Serano provides a very good FAQ about the term. This provides us the ability to discuss issues without centering “not trans” as normal, genetic, biological, or natal as all of those thing apply to trans people as well.

    People call each other whatever they like on their own time and in their own heads – can’t help that. However, reclaiming a word is removing the negative associations from that word. It does NOT make use of that word okay in all contexts (or most contexts really). But that’s a long debated issue, particularly regarding “Queer”.

    It is only on the Internet where I am assumed to be a sex worker. partly due to the fact that sex workers used dating sites to get business and partly because men mostly only see trans women as hyper-sexualized objects.

    Steven, I’m saying that Shemale is NOT only used in the porn industry. It is what men looking for trans women think we are called. Seriously – have you ever looked at a trans dating site, or the “looking for” section of a chaser forum? Even on your own sites’ forums Shemale is used interchangeably with transgendered by guys. If you REALLY want a snapshot of the real guys who are looking for some sort of encounter with a trans woman, pop onto CraigsList and read the Casual Encounters M4T. It’s pretty much the lowest common denominator, but I think it’s a fair assessment of what the average guy thinks is appropriate.

    • Ok, that’s new and interesting, I’ll read more on it as I think it’s a great concept.

      As in my previous post, I compltely agree with you on the way personals sites are … and the men/people/chasers looking for TG women but as I also stated, it goes both ways, look at the CL (ok let’s not!) but AFF or the few other places which promote TG dating and the transpeople on it, are also using the wrong terminology.
      I really don’t think my website forums are a good example of the way people should refer to each other, they are pornsite members and porn performers having dialogues.
      I do have a (mainly) non-porn forum at http://www.tgirltalk.com which seems to have a more educated populace but in turn, much smaller.

      We’re talking in the same channels but with people pointing their fingers in the usage of some porn words which aren’t going to change, they’re not really coming up with other viable ways to educate?

      • Steven, THIS is what I was hoping for. I don’t blame you for the common use of the word, I think you may have set a precedent and it has become self-perpetuating within the industry, but I don’t think you need to have the full weight of this on your shoulders.

        I want you to know that your tgirltalk forum is the reason I don’t put you in the same category as the LB69 guys or the Black Ops creeps (sorry if you know/like them).

        I only have three avenues to do education. Here, my life, and TLB – I think I do some good stuff, but it is literally life or death from me. One of my biggest criticisms of teh trans porn industry is that there is not enough movement to establish a separation between fantasy and reality. It is not the same as any other type of porn because the viewer is not in daily contact with members of the viewed population.

        ex. Every guy who looks at MILF porn sees older women every day of his life. Viewers of trans porn don’t have that balance – so I think that porn companies need to have a more balanced dialogue with fans. This is across the board, and not just you, but everyone – Vivid on down.

      • How can you have a transwoman in an incidental role … yet have the guy “gobbling down the cock” of a … woman?

        I don’t get how this is any different to the porn we make?

        Email me a maildrop address and I’ll send you a copy of “Hazel Does Hollywood” or our up-coming, “Morgan Bailey’s Bad Day”.

    • IT’s a really good point that the majority of people watching “shemale porn” don’t get to meet these people in reality, whereas they do for most other types of porn. Frankly, that’s why we’re successful in what we do and why the sites Shemale Yum and Black-Tgirls are so successful, we don’t over glamourise the models and go for a “girl next door” type of look, well in the knowledge that few people would ever meet a girl next door, such as this.

      I’d welcome feedback on just how you would establish that seperation? What would people want to see, that would encompass this sort of exchange and thought?

      The transgenders I know who make tgirl porn, Wendy, Vicki Richter, Joanna Jet, etc. make excellent commerical product but it’s more extreme and exploitative in what it shows then our content. What’s your thoughts on that … and if you had some budget, what would you produce?

      • If I had a budget to make a porn (honestly, I’d probably pay off my care credit) I would make one that made the trans women incidental to the plot. I’d have a story connecting sex scenes where the trans women were not played in an “OMG she’s got a wang” kinda way. I’d also have a guy go to gobble down the cock and have the trans woman gently take his attention to other parts of her body.

        Kinda like I actually have sex.

      • How can you have a transwoman in an incidental role … yet have the guy “gobbling down the cock” of a … woman?

        I don’t get how this is any different to the porn we make?

        Email me a maildrop address and I’ll send you a copy of “Hazel Does Hollywood” or our up-coming, “Morgan Bailey’s Bad Day”.

  6. Steven – I also want to talk about ungendering. This is important. In most contexts, I am a woman. Period. When I run to the market, do my job, clean my toilet – I am a woman. Being trans has nothing to do with it. In *SOME* situations being trans in vitally important, in other situations it is an important thing to frame as a reference.

    What you are saying sounds like you are saying we aren’t “real women” and this line of thought is a very dangerous one for us. By saying “transgenders” rather than “transgendered women”, you are erasing the 90% of my life where that would not apply, and give an out for those who don’t have particularly good intentions.

    • Hi Bionca
      Yes you are a real woman when you do all of that and more. There is nothing that should stop you living your day and your life, not as a woman.
      As soon as you tell someone that you were born a different gender, or have/had different genetalia, or were intersexed, etc. then society may still call you a woman but the whispers, the inneuendos, the curiousity and the callous, will label you as different. It would be lovely, if it was different (see Iain Banks futuristic books) but it’s not.

      These poor girls like Gwen Araujo, who was a young woman who didn’t (arugably) tell a date that she was different, was killed when he found out she was. Where do you draw the line? Do you date men as a transgender or a woman? When do you tell people (if ever?) and what are the consequences of not doing so, whether it’s friends, dating or jobs. The consequences say more about them, then they would you but it’s still something that means to be considered by the transwoman.
      (referring to the general you, and not Bionca in particular).

      • Well, yes actually once someone knows my status I am immediately ungendered. It is a problem, and one that using “transgender” (as a noun) “shemale” etc. perpetuates.

        Gwen, Angie, Sanesha Stewart, My friend Christine, and on and on were murdered/assaulted by intimate partners. In every case the initial reaction of the public was to assume that they had in some way tricked the guy. It is no secret that the #1 fantasy of chasers and played out for those same guys is the “Tranny Trick” scenario. Personally, I see a connection between theses real life crimes and the porn fantasy and the reactions expressed by the public.

      • In-correct assumption or not, I think we both probably know girls who do “trick” the guy.

        I’ve never been a fan of the “tranny trick” scenario so we’d rarely do it and when we have it’s usually in a comedy or historical type scene. I really can’t see guys watching “Tranny Trick” type shemale porn and then going out and getting “tricked” before beating a girl to death.

  7. Steven- To your two posts.

    1) I think you can have a porn where the focus isn’t on how exotic and freaky it must be to have sex with a trans woman. My problems with trans porn are largely the problems that many women have with mainstream porn. The actresses and the sex they perform bear only marginal relationships to what actually happens in life. Given that this same discussion is happening with mainstream porn, I don’t think we can really work that out here where the exoticification element is 100x that of yer standard cis boy + cis girl + her friend you have in other videos.

    2) Honestly, I don’t think I do know any gals who have intentionally “tricked” a guy. I may know some, but I am not aware of this. I have had guys want to meet me places and pretend to pick me up “not knowing” – but that’s different.

    I think people see trans women as being deceptive, simply because they are trans. The ‘tranny trick” plays into that it reinforces it in the minds of the viewers of the medium that this is how trans women operate. We have already established that even with educational material out there for them, guys believe that “shemale” is a proper form of address.

    Do I think guys watch “tranny trick” porn and murder/beat trans women? Yeah I do. Given that is the defense used to get them abysmally short sentences on the off chance they even have a conviction. Having been on the receiving end of that scenario, I’m pretty confident I’m not alone.

    Not only the guys doing the violence, but the public in general thinks this way. Is porn solely responsible? Nope, not even close. However, when Angie Zapata was murdered, even in trans-friendly forums the immediate conclusion was that she was at fault – she had tricked him. So, places like TLB, HA, and LB69 forums guys who date/screw/wank to trans women were just as quick to jump to the wrong conclusion as the dingleberries posting on CNN.

    • Hi Bionca
      I think we do porn that doesn’t make the tgirls “freaky” for the main part, certainly no freakier than many other styles or category of porn. As you previously brought up the MILF niche – all porn I’ve seen of that, does emphasis the older women/younger man and in transgender porn, there is no getting away from the fact, that one or more of the participants are transgender. We present the girls as girls and often in fairly real life situations, I can’t think of one scene we’ve done offhand that would be a “trick situation” although there may be over the years. The more fantasy sites, like transexdomination.com are clearly fantasy and are no different from any other dominations style sites.

      I’ve been outspoken across the same forums you’ve mentioned about how responsiblity in making porn, does transfer to reality. Specifically in the context of wearing condoms for penatrative sex (apart from between real life partners) and certain styles of porn which include gagging the model during oral, holding her nose, spitting, etc. There simply, is no need for these types of portrayals and as I’d previously mentioned, some the worst came transexual producers.

      In Hawaii, there were a bunch of cute Filipino transsexuals, who often went to the clubs and “tricked” the guys by not letting them know. Mostly, the guys went along with it (as long as their friends didn’t find out) and those girls found this a turn on. I’ve found this prevalent amongst many girls I’ve talked to and in my opinion, it can only be a form of validation whether to themselves or each other. I can’t comment specifically on Angie Zapata, Gwen Araujo or Sanesha (who was a model of ours) but I do know it’s common place and it’s dangerous. I’ve posted about this before, I know there is never an excuse for violence and abuse but when there are violent and abusive people out there, everyone should do their best (and educate others) not to put themselves in harms way.

  8. Hey Steven- Maybe it’s the marketing, maybe it’s the industry in general, maybe it’s my perception – but I feel like trans women ARE seen for some sort of “freak factor”. And while you, personally, don’t (often?) do scenes with a “trick” element, the industry as whole absolutely does. I’m not making you defend people you do not work with, nor am I holding you accountable for products you do not produce. I am however, saying that the industry as a whole is not helping dismantle the myth that trans women are lying liars who deceive unwitting cis men into sex. In fact it on the whole perpetuates it.

    You mention your problems with some of the newer trends in porn regarding humiliation (gagging, spitting, etc.) later in the linked interview. I have actually a post ready that talks about that. I want you to know that I’m not JUST holding your feet to the fire. I agree with you on those points completely, and I have also noted that trans porn is pretty bad at showing those scenes.

    Filipina (note the “A” at the end) girls “tricking” guys in Hawaii, well I don’t know what to say except to echo partly what you have said. “There is never an excuse for violence and abuse” PERIOD, NO BUT, NO QUALIFIERS. I don’t think the practice is particularly common. Trans girls are generally smart cookies who need to develop some skill at survival in order to simply navigate our lives. This just seems like an unlikely risk to take for most gals from my own observations.

    We both know that the second a trans woman is murdered one of the first comments is “What did she do?” This is victim blaming and in these cases the gal will never get to say that the guy had been seeing her for moths prior to her being suffocated and beaten in the guy’s bedroom. Given my own history, I’m not at all willing to believe guys who claim “trans panic”. Let’s not get in a habit of assuming the trans woman was lying.

  9. Thanks for the revealing interview. Only mr Steve Gallon has a notorious reputation in Thailand. Together with his buddy Frank from Hawaii. Paying his so called models almost nothing. Calling the Thai police whenever other producers shoot a movie too. Let the models spy on their customers and give the information to him. If you have an axe to grind with him or Frank they don’t stop at threatening. That can be from remarks like wait until I get my hands on you. Or putting private information on one of his garbage websites. Most Thai models don’t know what kind of gore he posted on his so “clean” websites. Customers should be aware that if they give private information and get a difference in view Steve will say all is fair in love and war.

    Also Steve had his mentor. Eric (somchai) from Chiang Mai. The biggest Trash from Brittain. Lucky big C nailed Eric. Something Steve fears the most. Yes Eric was a guy who contributed nothing to society whatsoever. An egocentric maniac.

    In the Bangkok area Frank and Steve are wellknown. The two biggest Cheap CHarlies in the world. Most of the models learned it the hard way. By hanging around with FRank and Steve too much. The lack of interest on any of his websites shows what the real market is doing for him. Nothing. Most of his material is a rerun of movies he made years ago. That tells it all. Cash flow problems the most.

    Steve threatened me many times. Only if you ask where to meet good old Steve keeps silent. Because Steve knows where the law ends. Sad that people like him are put in the spotlight like this. So I used a flashlight. Let readers judge what to think of Steve and his oh so clean grooby life.Not to forget grooby productions. Or should we say grab productions

  10. Steve Gallon is a mean, dishonest person. He hides behind a nice guy persona. Truly, this man is a menace in every respect, a true sociopath.
    He fits in well with the most despicable elements of any society.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: